Divisive pastors and Strange Fire conference

Weekend of Deep Spiritual Contrasts

Beginning last Wednesday during the Strange Fire Conference at his church in Sun Valley, Pastor John MacArthur continued his case against the Charismatic movement. A backlash of criticism from many in the Christian community resulted in the conference name and subject matter trending online over the last several days.

John MacArthur on Calvin's Pulpit

John MacArthur on Calvin’s Pulpit (Photo credit: six steps )

The Rev. John MacArthur, influential author, pastor, old school fundamentalist whose church draws over 8000 weekly attendees, and seminary president has (according to his words) hosted the Strange Fire conference to help the Church, and people who believe the Bible is the Word of God and that God has revealed Himself clearly and consistently and without contradiction.

Whereas the Jesus movement looked for ways to include people whom the church was not including (hippies, ’68 flower child counter-culture, etc), MacArthur’s movement is criticised because he seems bent on figuring out how to exclude a large majority of Christians from the movement they are already in. John MacArthur believes all Charismatics are blasphemers, misguided at best and perhaps even likely in league with evil forces, and ultimately hell-bound, which is the premise of his Strange Fire conference, based on his recent book of the same name. MacArthur spent the conference denouncing the prosperity gospel, the social gospel, charismatics….

Many think it is more a promotional tour of MacArthur using this gathering to promote his book and to have his ever-shrinking group of friends getting them back again as his followers.

English: Joel Osteen at Lakewood Church, Houst...

Joel Osteen at Lakewood Church, Houston, Texas (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

MacArthur’s punches thrown during the three-day conference included calling out mainline, Pentecostal-influenced pastors such as T.D. Jakes and Joel Osteen, and congregations that he says focus on “spirit-filled” services rather than Christ-centered doctrine.

“If the Charismatic movement was being produced by the Holy Spirit, the glory of Christ would prevail everywhere,” said MacArthur during the morning session Thursday. “It would be Christ dominated and everyone in the movement would be bowing the knee to the true Christ in belief of the true Gospel.”

He continued,

“The people would be humble. They would be joyful. They would be sacrificial. They would be confessional. They would be declaring Jesus as Lord and themselves His slaves. They would be denying themselves, taking up their cross and following Him wherever He led.”

MacArthur called the Charismatic movement a “long war on truth.”

“The true people of God have always had to battle the false prophets and the liars,” he said. “What makes them effective is the deceptiveness of it. It is a strange irony to me, in the Charismatic movement, that if you criticize them, if you endeavour to be vigilant and discerning, and if you endeavour to contend for the truth and hold them to Scripture and expose their error, they will condemn you as the sinner … How do I know that? I have lived that.”

He responded to critics of the three-day Strange Fire conference at his Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, Calif., that many pastors believe is causing dissension among the faithful because he’s teaching that the Charismatic movement is leading people astray and dishonours the Holy Spirit.

MacArthur commented that some of his critics have said that he’s fixated on the Charismatic movement, a claim he countered by noting that in his 45 years in ministry, this was his first conference he’s held on the movement, and believes it has come too late.

“In response to this conference, there have been some attacks, and we’ve been unable to escape them,” MacArthur said to the more than 3,000 attendees at the conference Friday night. “I just want to address those, because I do think that it’s important to answer the criticisms that have come.”

Through the last decennia we heard of many “miraculous” works presented as the work of a sovereign God. The people ‘speaking in tongues‘ become more popular and by many shaking and moaning is considered to be divine.

Jeremy Egrerer, CP Guest Contributor writes:

“if acting drunk is something which proves the presence of the Almighty, then every clumsy fool and every epileptic should be canonized into sainthood, and every bar considered a temple.” {In Defense of John MacArthur, Strange Fire Conference and the Challenge to the Charismatic Mov’t}

“If Charismatics are speaking the language of heaven, let us record and prove it. Release every Christian scholar in its study; let us learn to speak it on our own, and therefore prove ourselves the sons of God. But if it remains a universally undecipherable mess, incomprehensible and unmanageable beyond every human means, then it is only fair to wonder either whether we really are speaking the language of heaven, or whether perhaps God divided the nations of angels because they built a tower of Babel in the clouds – a historical assertion neither provable nor sensible. And if we cannot even do this, then let us at least abide by the rules contained in Scripture for the orderly and Godly expression of spiritual gifts.”

Prophesy and speaking in tongues does not mean something Godly. with prophesy we should take attention and check what those called prophets told about future events and how they enrolled. Soon we shall see they have no such power to foretell the future correctly. It is just not given to man. Even the great prophet Jeshua, Jesus Christ could not tell when he was coming back to this earth to judge the living and the dead. You would think such an important event for mankind this son of God should surely know, but he did not.

Mars Hill Church Pastor Mark Driscoll at the Strange Fire conference on Friday, Oct. 18, 2013, hosted by Pastor John MacArthur's Grace Community Church.

Mars Hill Church Pastor Mark Driscoll at the Strange Fire conference on Friday, Oct. 18, 2013, hosted by Pastor John MacArthur’s Grace Community Church.

Mark Driscoll, pastor of Mars Hill Church in Washington state, made his way Friday to Pastor John MacArthur’s Strange Fire conference in California to hand out copies of his new book, A Call to Resurgence: Will Christianity Have a Funeral or a Future? and presumably share his views on the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit — which the Strange Fire conference challenges. He believes that people know they have the Holy Spirit if they speak in tongues, the primary evidence to Pentecostals that a believer has the Spirit.

Driscoll who used this conference as an opportunity to stir up some drama, has posted photos of himself talking with attendees at MacArthur’s Strange Fire conference on Friday, where he did indeed hand out copies of his new book — until they were reportedly seized by members of the Strange Fire security team. (find the photo: Handing out free copies of my new book, A Call To Resurgence) The director of the conference explained to Driscoll that those who are distributing books have gone through an extensive process and that they’d like him not to distribute them. After continuing to direct attendees to take the books, security offered to help him take the books back to his car. Driscoll insisted multiple times, “No, they’re my gift to Grace Church. I want you to have them.” After insisting that security not help him with the books back to the car, the conference director accepted the gift and brought them to GCC offices. This book clearly seems to bring disunity and dishonour to the Christian community.
The security people graciously asked Driscoll three times to stop hanging out books and he continued to do so. This shows how the ego went over the respectful attitude at some ones place. The Pentecostal movement shows the world it has also become as sick as the many other denominations in Christendom. Here we could see a pastor subverting a fellow pastor in his conference and attempting to dissuade people from MacArthur’s church to his own. I would consider that a very impolite action and calling it a terrible example. People have a right to share their ideas and point of view but they should know their place and consider where and when they want to take the word and attention.

Rob Shryock remarks:

Ironically, this whole incident highlights another similarity between Driscoll and MacArthur: besides both being relentless self-promoters who make their names by loudly denouncing others, they also hate when people call them out as self-promoters who loudly denounce others, preferring to be known as quiet, humble men of God who love and respect their enemies – despite all tweets to the contrary.

Christians like Driscoll and MacArthur thrive on conflict.

But Christians should be as followers of Christ brotherly united. Though brothers and sisters may argue with each other they always should be careful not having their fight s coming into public and damaging the name of the family.

MacArthur who commented that the conference wasn’t for nonbelievers within the Charismatic movement, for which there are many, he contends.

“I don’t expect nonbelievers to have a desire for the truth, a hunger for the truth or to search out the truth. That’s not what unbelievers do unless they’re being prompted by the Holy Spirit.”

, pastor.

pastor. (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

Though the task Jesus has given to his followers to get unbelievers and to bring them to him (Christ), getting them to know the Good News of the Kingdom of God. In the teaching of Christ Jesus it is shown to us that it would be unloving to leave people in darkness and error. So we should also meet the unbelievers and for the believers we should show them the right way and when they go wrong we also should show them their mistakes. Already very early in the beginning of Christianity perverse, deceptive men came to distract the community from the Word of God. already then there where preachers trying to get people away from the truth of Scripture and to lead Christians astray.

For this reason we should look at all those who like to preach and consider their attitude against each other. We also have the duty of to pointing out errors and giving biblical arguments also to those who call themselves pastors and church elders.

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Do find:

Strange Fire Organisation: Strange Fire + Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California.

Find additional reading:

  1. John MacArthur Responds to Critics Who Believe His Strange Fire Conference Is Divisive, Unloving
  2. Mark Driscoll ‘Crashes’ John MacArthur’s Strange Fire Conference? (PHOTOS)Mark Driscoll ‘Crashes’ John MacArthur’s Strange Fire Conference? (Ppotos)
  3. Mark Driscoll vs John MacArthur: Battle of the Self-Promoting Calvinists
  4. Speaking in Tongues—A Growing Phenomenon
  5. Tongues, Speaking in
  6. Speaking in tongues
  7. Meaning of “speaking in tongues”
  8. Speaking in Tongues—Is It From God?
  9. Speaking in Tongues—Is It From God? — Watchtower Online
  10. Is Speaking in Tongues an Evidence of True Worship?
  11. Is the Gift of Tongues Part of True Christianity
  12. Some one or something to fear #6 Faith in the Most High
  13. The Spirit of God imparts love,inspires hope, and gives liberty
  14. Not enlightened by God’s Spirit
  15. Why hasn’t anything been inspired recently? Revelation was the last inspired book and it was a long time ago. Why aren’t there any more?
  16. Pope Francis I on the Holy Spirit
  17. Louise Weiss building and towers after Ziggurat Babel
  18. Not all Christians are followers of a Greco-Roman culture
  19. Christianity is a love affair
  20. Bringing Good News into the world
  21. The task given to us to love each other

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  • ‘Strange Fire:’ Addressing the Dangerous yet Popular Teaching of Charismatic Leaders (averageus.com)
    What do Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Joyce Meyer, Paul and Jan Crouch, John Hagee, Benny Hinn, and T.D. Jakes have in common?
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    Charismatics are a large, diverse, loosely knit group who are difficult to define because they are often independent, united only by the personalities they follow, rather than being formally organized as groups of churches. But in general, Charismatics (and their theological first cousins, Pentecostals) are Bible-believing Christians with this distinguishing feature: They are committed to the ongoing miraculous work of God’s Spirit in Christians’ lives.
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    Charismatics tend to be experience-driven, pursuing personal power, victory, and prophecy while placing a low value on doctrinal and theological training. They tend to appeal to their personal experiences for proof that a particular belief is true, or practice is valid. They crave ecstatic experiences, the miraculous, new revelations, and physical healing, and generally believe that these are all available to those who have enough faith. Since they prefer immediate experiences over life-long biblical learning and growth, they can be easily persuaded to believe whatever a convincing personality tells them. In other words, they are easily deceived. And according to MacArthur, they often are.
  • The Top Seven Strange “Strange Fire” Statements (holyspiritactivism.wordpress.com)
    Here are the top seven strange Strange Fire statements!
  • John MacArthur’s *Strange Fire* Conference, Charismatics, & Christ (bjstockman.wordpress.com)
    Christian’s should be known much more by what and who they are for than by what and who they are against. Yes, Christians must distinguish between that which we are for and that which we are against, and this comes from naming what we are against, but this should not be our central mark. Nevertheless, what follows is all done with what began here in mind.
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    It is my understanding that CJ Mahaney, a charismatic, preached in his pulpit and that he has relationships with other continuationist pastors like John Piper. Maybe it was intended to be alarmist to better “market” the conference? After all, in a later video, he seems to clean this up a touch, as he gives a “word of encouragement to faithful Pentecostals” and says that the conference is addressing the aberrations and extremes of the movement. (Would of been nice to hear that the first time). But this was *not* communicated in the first video, even if it was intended.
  • Strange Fire Conference: MacArthur’s Appeal to His Continuationist Friends (challies.com)
    Before addressing the accusations against the conference, MacArthur charged attendees to carefully read their copy of Strange Fire and to measure it against the Word of God. He is convinced that this book, with its well-documented research and extensive footnotes, will withstand careful scrutiny. He reminds us that this book and conference is intended for the Church. He has no expectation for either one to be helpful to non-believers, which he suspects makes up much of the charismatic movement.
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    Here are the seven accusations, along with brief responses.
  • Lessons Learned at Strange Fire (challies.com)
    Those who listened to the conference heard again and again just how many charismatics there are in the world—somewhere around 500 million. Conrad Mbewe made it clear that in many places in the world, and especially in the developing world, to be a Christian does not mean that you trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, but that you believe in and practice something akin to the miraculous gifts. Charismatic theology is a North American export that is making a massive impact elsewhere in the world.
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    The charismatic/cessationist issue is polarizing. Before Strange Fire I did not know just how polarizing it could be, though I suppose others did know, and this is why we have been loathe to address it. Based on the reaction to the event and the discussions back-and-forth, it seems clear that this is an issue many of us feel as much as it is an issue we believe by reasoning it out from Scripture. It is one of those issues where we see our own position with utter clarity and look to the opposite position with shock that they can believe something so absurd. Those tend to be the most dangerous issues of all because they can turn sour so quickly and easily. In the face of such a polarizing issue, I need to consider how I can maintain unity in the faith while still holding fast to what I believe the Bible teaches.
  • John MacArthur vs. Mark Driscoll: Megachurch pastors clash over charismatic theology (religionnews.com)
    Rich Gregory, assistant to John MacArthur, said he was there when it happened and that Driscoll’s books were not confiscated and there was nothing confrontational.“It was great, we were happy to have him at the conference. He brought books to hand out. We explained to him that all the books distributed on campus need to be approved. He told us that he wanted them to be a gift to us from him. One of our conference directors took that gift and brought them up to the offices. If you hear from him and he wants them back, we can send those back if he wants them. We were not looking at him like, ‘Boy you’re trying to stir up controversy.’ I don’t want to judge his motives for what he wasn’t trying to do. I wish they had actually stayed for the actual content of the conference.”
  • Samuel Rodriguez Takes on Strange Fire: Tells John MacArthur he Needs to ‘Focus on Preaching the Word’ (blackchristiannews.com)
    “If the Charismatic movement was being produced by the Holy Spirit, the glory of Christ would prevail everywhere,” said MacArthur during the morning session Thursday. “It would be Christ dominated and everyone in the movement would be bowing the knee to the true Christ in belief of the true Gospel.”
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    Rodriguez, who is considered the leading spokesperson for the Hispanic evangelical community, much of which is a part of or has a background in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement, said in a statement sent to The Christian Post via email that MacArthur misses the mark by a wide margin. Rodriguez has been an Assemblies of God ordained minister since the age of 23. His bio includes the statement that in 2010, he was called to start a multi-ethnic, Christ-centered, spirit-filled, Bible-based church in Sacramento, Calif.
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    “John MacArthur suffers from spiritual, cultural and theological myopia,” stated Rodriguez to CP. “With great due deference to a Christian leader many of us admire, his conclusions regarding the largest and fastest growing of global Christendom, the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement, speaks to a man ignorant of the community’s unbridled commitment to biblical orthodoxy.
    “Unfortunately, this blessed Christian leader cannot differentiate between substance and style, or engaging a biblical metaphor, between Christianity’s ‘wine’ and the varied ‘wineskins.’ In other words, Mr. MacArthur should be focusing on the fact that while many in the church continue to abandon our Christian faith, the Pentecostal/Charismatic community continues to offer the church a legitimate growth mechanism.”
  • Strange Fire Conference: John MacArthur’s Opening Address (challies.com)
    It is inevitable that at some point John MacArthur will be the subject of a biography (beyond the existing biography written by Iain Murray). Today he is beginning something that will, I think, appear in that biography. We will know better as the conference unfolds what impact it will make in his life and ministry and in the wider Christian world.There are 4,000 people in attendance at the Strange Fire conference and many thousands more who are watching the live-stream in English, Spanish, German, Portuguese, Arabic, Italian, French, Russian and Mandarin. Here is what they heard in the opening address.
  • Strange Fire Conference Wraps Up; John MacArthur Calls on Reformed Pastors to ‘Police the Charismatic Movement’ and Guide it Back to the Gospel (blackchristiannews.com)
    Conrade Mbewe spoke again, delivering a message titled, “Are We Preachers or Witch Doctors?” As Tim Challies reported, “The first session of the final day at the Strange Fire conference brought Conrad Mbewe back to the pulpit. Phil Johnson introduced him by sharing how others have called him the Spurgeon of Africa. Today he brought message entitled, “Are We Preachers or Witch Doctors?” Though an odd question, it is pertinent to him because there has been a clear shift in how “evangelicals” relate to pastoral ministry. Mbewe’s aim is to give a broad sweeping picture of the landscape of African “evangelicalism.” Throughout this message his caveat is to put “evangelicalism” in quote and end-quote, because it does not represent biblical and faithful Christianity. There will be those in Africa who do not fit within the picture Mbewe portrays, but what he shares today is the trend and it is a dismal trend.
  • John MacArthur Responds to “Strange Fire” Conference Critics (blackchristiannews.com)
    “This is for the true church, so that they can discern; so that they can be protected from error; and so that they can be a source of truth for others outside the church,” he said, adding that his book, Strange Fire: The Danger of Offending the Holy Spirit With Counterfeit Worship, can withstand the most intense scrutiny, when measured against the word of God in the Bible.

3 thoughts on “Divisive pastors and Strange Fire conference

  1. Pingback: 2013 Lifestyle,religiously and spiritualy | Marcus' s Space

  2. you lie! about 1 COR 13:

    Justin Peters:

    just wanted to say thanks for writing back. I first heard you on video about the shipwrecked of the WFM. After listening for a while, what I heard was no doctrinal differences discussed, or biblical critic. Rather, I heard only an attacking and mocking of people over inane and idiotic things- and not quoting one single scripture.

    Your whole position is really illogical on 1 Cor 13. Yes, Corinthians has some correction in it, but in context here, Paul seems, to me anyway to be giving instructions. What I find amazing about people like you and John macarther, is how much you actually contradict Scripture to try and validate your own strange beliefs.

    To me and the rest of the Christian world who are not trying out for the Pharisee club, verses 1 through 4 verify that there are two types of tongues: praying in another language, and praying in a way directly to God that edifies yourself. Thats actually what it says. Your “interpretation” that tongues was only “other languages” is actually non Biblical. I find odd about you people is how you always accuse others of what you actually do: rip things out of context.

    1 Cor 12: paul speaks of gifts and how the body needs all different types of gifts.

    1 Cor 13 but the best way is to love people, for we all can only prophesy in part, but then when we are face to face with jesus, we will know all things, as he does. Please not the word of God:

    8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whetherthere is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

    HAS KNOWLEDGE CEASED?

    If anyone were to take your interpretation, and be honest about it, one would have to ask: “Has knowledge ceased?” No, it has not, and yet you use the same scripture to infer that tongues have ceased! And the next verse to any person who is not trying to make up odd and strange doctrines is really just a repeat of verses 8-10:

    11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

    Its painfully obvious that knowledge has not ceased, and that face to face does not mean face to face with the cannon, but rather face to face with jesus, for only then shall we “know” even as we “are known.” Certainly even you would agree that has to be jesus! But it demonstrates what kind of gymnastics one has to perform to have your strange doctrines! You want to say that verse 8-10 are the cannon, while verses 11-12 are Jesus? Now that is dishonest!

    As far as your assertion that tongues was only known speech, why then would Paul say tongues of men and angels? Funny how you just throw away texts you don’t like to make up a doctrine. The fact that he said it means nothing to you when it suits your purposes. And you say that it was only back then and a sign of impending judgement, and yet it plainly says in Acts 2: this is the last days. Ar we in the last days still? yes we are! And so your logic fails. i have written a book looking at every text in the OT about the day of the Lord, and I assure you, we are not there yet.

    Back to 1 COR 14 now: Pursue love and the gifts (that is unless you are a member of grace to you)

    4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.

    Its certainly not unreasonable to believe that praying in the spirit is an act of getting closer to God, as Paul here say just that and says “my spirit prays.” It’s what we believe and act on, and we feel closer to God when we do it. Its certainly has here a possible interpretation, and so its not totally off the charts to see this text in this way.

    As far as hermeneutics, I guess you forgot that in Acts 2, where he says the following: ( and even there seems to be a difference not really discuss that much:

    A As you believe, tongues were a sign where people talked in someone else language, while in 1 Cor there seems to be:

    B the gift of tongues in church where someone needs to interpret, so even the first tongues morphed from Acts 2, would you not agree? So for you to define all tongues based ion Acts 2 is already not right!

    17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
    That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
    Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
    Your young men shall see visions,
    Your old men shall dream dreams.
    18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
    I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
    And they shall prophesy.
    19 I will show wonders in heaven above
    And signs in the earth beneath:
    Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
    20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
    And the moon into blood,
    Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
    21 And it shall come to pass
    That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
    Shall be saved.’

    So yes, the day of the Lord has not happened yet and yes we are still in the last days, so no, you cannot use this verse to prove your point, when it in fact proves the opposite!

    Lastly I would say that you are certainly welcome to have any belief you would like to have. And yes there are always minister who get crazy and make mistakes, or do wrong things, or people who make mistakes praying in tongues etc. I for one, would certainly not call born again Christians who speak in tongue non believers. I mean seriously, what about people like me who were saved in a non spirit filled church and years later asked for more of the Holy Spirit? What, we “lost our salvation” according to John MacARTHER?

    I find it infantile to argue that. Further, to ignore miracles taking place by the tens of thousands-all documented miracles is to really live on an island in a vast sea of Orwellian proportions!

    Also, whats the unforgivable sin? Speaking against the Holy Spirit, or saying that what he did was done by the devil. If I were you, I would be careful and say this is what I believe, but its up to you to judge. I don’t know if it was you or the moderator in one of the SF videos who said, “I have never seen a documented miracle!” (Gleefully!) Well you ain’t looking very hard!

    I personally know many people instantly healed of incurable cancers and all sorts of issues. I can send you thousands or you could just go on youtube and type in miracles, jesus, documented. And you can hear hundreds of people who give all the glory to Jesus Christ who have the exact same faith as you!

    Seriously, the nit pik you gave on Don Piper, someone who does not even believe in healing of gifts, was like listing to a jaded prosecutor slapping down a hooker, and not speaking respectfully to a man who preaches Jesus and whose every important doctrine is the same as yours!

    So you are forced to say that these bona fide miracles are of he devil to keep your “strange doctrine” afloat. And that I can tell you is dangerous ground.

    BUt I doubt cowards like you could even have the intellectual ability answer these simple and straightforward questions without sneering down your nose and coming up with some pseudo intellectual attack with no basis in fact.

    Alan Brooks

    Like

    • Dear Alan, where did brother Marcus Ampe or we lie? You are commenting on a video which is presented by holyspiritactivism.wordpress.com and not by us.

      That our “interpretation” that tongues was only “other languages” would be non Biblical is a strange remark, because look at the language of the Holy Scriptures and you will find out what it means speaking in tongues.

      Even today we still talk about the tongue or the language a person speaks and by that we do not mean a gibberish or some unspoken intermix of sounds with no particular meaning or which can not be understood by the person of the same culture and same language of the speaker.

      We did not say “miracles do not take place” but we insinuated that people themselves can not provoke wonders or miracles. There exist a lot of cases where we do not understand how it could be possible. The wonders are not our of the world.
      Even Jesus could not do any miracle without his Father, who is greater than him. And Jesus is much greater than many other human beings.

      Joh 5:19 The Scriptures 1998+ (19) Therefore יהושע {Jeshua} responded and said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son is able to do none at all by Himself, but only that which He sees the Father doing, because whatever He does, the Son also likewise does.

      Like

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