Pain, sanctification and salvation

It is nice to be content with the believe God uses these times of pain in our lives like a gardener uses pruning shears.

In order to grow, we must be pruned. In order to fully trust God, we have to come to the point where we trust his strength more than our own. I like to say that the amount of pain you endure is proportionate to the amount of joy you are capable of experiencing.{About Devotions by Chris}

Many people have known pain, and many have been at the end of their tops, or did come to a point they did not see any solution any more. For many it has been like they got to the bottom and they thought they would not survive if it felled out again.

When bad things happen to us when we are doing everything right, we often question our position but also God.

We’ve all heard the question asked “Why do bad things happen to good people”. Well it happens to give you an opportunity to grow. If things aren’t happening in your life that are pruning you, that’s when you should be concerned. {Why bad things happen to good people}

Some Pruning tools that can be used to maintai...

Like there are pruning tools, we also do have to find the right tools to go through life – Some Pruning tools that can be used to maintain a garden. (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

We may do a lot of good works and not see the nice results of it, but in the end we should know that no matter what happens it always shall come to a certain point because of our actions taken. Be them good or bad, it at a certain time shall show.

We all produce fruit in our lives. Our actions produce results. Our results show God, others and ourselves what’s important to us. There is a law of sowing and reaping. {Why bad things happen to good people}

If you sow time I to other’s lives, you will reap love. If you sow forgiveness, you will reap joy. If you sow understanding, you will reap peace. On the other hand if you sow selfishness, you will reap loneliness. If you sow bitterness, you will reap hate. What you do matters and will come back as fruit in your life. God wants us to produce good fruit in our lives so that others will be able to see Him through us. {Why bad things happen to good people}

Many people want to see it that when they become a Christian that they will never have to face pain any more, and that they should not do any works any more or not have to be careful to be not bad. They think they are saved and at all times shall end up in heaven, instead of understanding the good hope of the coming Kingdom of God.

We should come to understand that the Divine Creator expects something from His creation. He wants us to love Him and to recognise Him as the Only One God, and not to bow down in front of pictures or statues, worshipping other gods (be it men, women, nature elements, animals or plants). He knows man wanted to go his own way, but has given them an opportunity to grow and to restore the relationship between God and man again. He even provided a ‘son of man’ who was willing to obey Him and showed it to humankind that man can follow the Divine Creator and do His will instead of the own will.

God’s Son, His unspeakable gift, is the measure, even as He is the pledge of grace.” {Horatius Bonar}

“Jesus fully paid the price for your sin, which means you don’t ever have to hide from God, no matter how messed up you think you are.” {Paul Tripp}

“It’s by grace alone that your sins are forgiven, and it’s by grace alone that the wandering allegiance of your heart is reclaimed.” {Paul Tripp}

With that special example of the promised Messiah in mind we should also remember how he even at to suffer, though he had not done anything wrong, he had never sinned, and always followed the commandments of his God, the God of Abraham. When people say only good things can come to good Godly persons and ungodly persons shall receive bad things, they should remember Jesus Christ who also had to undergo bad things, though he never earned such bad things. Bad things are no punishment from God.

When bad things happen to good people it is like the bad things that can happen to bad people. They can learn from it or can moan about it and continue to walk in the negativity of that life. Others can try to get the positive out of the negative. They can try to see that bad things happen to everyone and learn form them. They can see in it an opportunity to grow and to produce more and better fruits than ever before, in the acceptance that they are like pruned by God.

If you are being pruned right now, stop and thank God instead of questioning Him. It means that He thinks you are producing good fruit and He has bigger plans for you. Trust in Him and in His plan for you. Handle the pruning with grace and look forward to the next time of harvest in your life. {Why bad things happen to good people}

English: Pruning: dense growth after shearing.

Pruning: dense growth after shearing. (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

Without pruning, we can only produce so much of each fruit. When He does prune us, He creates more opportunity to produce than ever before. But by that pruning and producing fruit we also should know that:

God doesn’t give us groceries for a week (which is how most of us shop). He wants us to be dependent on Him daily and to go to Him daily for our needs. He could provide a lifetime of bread for us with just one word, but He doesn’t. He longs for us to go to Him and to rely on Him. {Hold You, Dada!}

God knows that if He were to supply more than our daily bread, we would start to forget who provided it and then begin to take credit for His work. It’s not a far stretch to take that further to our salvation. {Hold You, Dada!}

God accepted the ransom offer Jesus brought in front of Him. Jehovah was willing to take Jesus out of the dead, after having been three days in hell, and made him higher than angels, to come to sit next to Him, to be a mediator between Him (Jehovah God) and man.

As such we have somebody who gave his life to save us. By this offer for which we do not have to pay, we got a clean-washing of our sins (by the Blood of Christ). Having bought free by Christ, many do think than everything is finished and cleared, and now they may do whatever they want, because “Once saved, always saved”. They are very mistaken! If they are not careful it can well be that they loose everything. It can well be that they become like the fig tree which did not produce any good fruits any more and was cut down. We also can be cut off from the entrance to the Kingdom of God. We can still miss all the chances, all the opportunities which where freely given to us.

God knows that our independent nature wants to do things to earn His grace and salvation, but that’s not God’s plan. Our dependence on Him is what He’s after. {Hold You, Dada!}

It is not God Who has done the work. It is not God Who has paid the price. It is the Nazarene man Jeshua, Jesus Christ, who is the Messiah and has offered himself as a Lamb for God and for mankind.

People may be been “baptised into the Body of Christ Jesus” and may be “marked with the cross of Christ” and “sealed with the Holy Spirit” but this does not mean it shall be “forever”.  When they are been grafted onto the “Tree of Life” than they should be people who follow the Wish of the Most High Divine Creator. Those who are willing to step in the footsteps of the master teacher Jeshua (Jesus Christ) should be willing to bear fruit, not because you fear the harvest, but because this is who you are:

a branch of Christ’s choosing, nourished by the root of God’s saving love and mercy, strengthened by the stirring sap of the Spirit. {Sermon: On doing the things}

We all should be careful that we do not get Emotional pain and emotional deadness but keep seeing the light of salvation and stay encouraged by it and by are fellow believers. Others around us should see our hope in action. With our actions and words we should bring others to come to realise who they have to follow and what they have to do, making them to come from pain to purpose. Each person for himself has to decide or to determine the drive.

When there is faith there should also be works of faith resulting in fruitage of the Spirit.

Every person who is calling himself a Christian should make him or herself perfect in every good work to do the Will of God,  like Jesus did not his will but the Will  of his Father. It is only when we by faith work at ourselves and allow us to change and grow in Christ, that we shall have the working in us that which is well pleasing in God His sight through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever.

Now the God of peace, who brought up the great shepherd of the sheep, our Lord Jesus, from the dead with the blood of an eternal covenant*,  (21)  perfect you* in every good work, to this end, you* should practice his will, working in you* what is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ: to whom is the glory forever and ever. Amen. (Hebrews 13:20-21 MLV)


Additional reading:

  1. Why think that (4) … God would reveal himself in words
  2. Doubting the reality, genuineness and effectiveness of God’s love
  3. Does God stands behind all evil on earth
  4. Fragments from the Book of Job #1: chapters 1-12
  5. Fragments from the Book of Job #4: chapters 27-31
  6. Fragments from the Book of Job #5: chapters 32-37
  7. I Can’t Believe That … (2) God would allow children to suffer
  8. The Immeasurable Grace bestowed on humanity
  9. Luck
  10. From pain to purpose
  11. 1 Corinthians 15 Hope in action
  12. Are you right down in the dumps? Stop digging!
  13. It continues to be a never ending, exhausting battle for survival.
  14. End of the Bottom Line
  15. In Defense of the truth
  16. Running away from the past
  17. I said God it hurts
  18. Dealing with worries in our lives
  19. Challenging claim 4 Inspired by God 3 Self-consistent Word of God
  20. Trusting, Faith, calling and Ascribing to Jehovah #1 Kings Faith
  21. Trusting, Faith, calling and Ascribing to Jehovah #2 Calling upon the Name of God
  22. Trusting, Faith, Calling and Ascribing to Jehovah #5 Prayer #1 Listening Sovereign Maker
  23. Trusting, Faith, Calling and Ascribing to Jehovah #9 Prayer #7 Reason to pray
  24. Trusting, Faith, Calling and Ascribing to Jehovah #15 Exposition before the Creator
  25. Trusting, Faith, Calling and Ascribing to Jehovah #16 Benefits of praying
  26. Trusting, Faith, Calling and Ascribing to Jehovah #17 Sorts of prayers
  27. God is Jehovah Shammah-God is There!
  28. Determine the drive
  29. Faith Over Fear
  30. Opportunity!
  31. God’s Comfort
  32. Aligned
  33. Faith because of the questions
  34. Trust God to shelter, safety and security
  35. God is my refuge and my fortress in Him I will trust
  36. It is not try but trust
  37. Gaining Christ, trusting Jehovah
  38. Acknowledge the majesty of the Lord’s reputation!
  39. A person is limited only by the thoughts that he chooses
  40. How do you keep people from stealing your joy?
  41. Looking forward to God’s faithfulness
  42. Hope is faith holding out its hand in the dark
  43. Al-Fatiha [The Opening] Süra 1:1-7 Help from God our Maker
  44. Bearing fruit
  45. You cannot change anything in your life with intention alone
  46. Fruits of the spirit will prevent you from being either inactive or unfruitful
  47. Looking for True Spirituality 5 Fruitage of the Spirit
  48. Looking for True Spirituality 8 Measuring Up
  49. Myth 12: The Hyper-Grace Gospel Makes People Lazy


  • Dig for Thursday the 4th of December……Jesus, nothing added and nothing taken away, that is God’s best…..Ecclesiastes 3 v 14 (
    Jesus could only do the work of His Father; this is made clear in Scripture, especially the Gospel of John.
    The finished work of Jesus Christ was complete and perfect and the express will of God the Father.Nothing needs to be added to the work of Jesus.


  • Christ In The Book Of Hebrews: “Working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight through Jesus Christ” (
    Through Jesus and His work on our behalf, God works His pleasure in us.
  • Believers In Jesus Christ Are World Overcomers! (
    As believers in Jesus Christ, as sons of God, as the Body of Christ, endued with His overcoming power, we have His ability in us to change the evil conditions around us. However, we must first deal with the evil conditions that are in our own souls so that we can confidently and in the love and power of Jesus Christ live and conduct ourselves as the conquerors God has made us to be in this world.
  • The Stage Is Set (
    I don’t deserve His pardon. My works don’t mean a thing, / But through His Hero, Jesus, Christ, He’s made my spirit sing. / The story has unfolded. The truth lays at our feet. / The happily ever after comes when we our Savior meet.
  • Doing works for God or Doing God’s will (
    This is a warning to all missionaries, full-time and part-time church workers and the lay person, for the people that Jesus is referring to here are not those who are unaware of the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but those who have prophesied, cast out devils and done (not some but) many wonderful works, in his name – the works that Jesus calls – works of iniquity.
  • Don’t give up on yourself (
    His mercy is ever-lasting. Be confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus — Phil. 1:6 NIV (syntax modified).
  • Thanksgiving Day (
    Almighty and gracious Father, we give you thanks for the fruits of the earth in their season and for the labors of those who harvest them.
  • Brethren, be Forthright and Dutiful, share Scripture with Vigor! (
    Brethren, be Forthright and Dutiful, share Scripture with Vigor. Live at Peace with one another for it unifies Souls and lays Foundation for the Kingdom of God. Move with us to a place where Songbirds warble Melodies to Christ, King of Life. You have what it takes to become a Pillar for your neighbor’s home.
  • Jesus Christ and Race Relations (
    In Christ’s family there can be no division into Jew and non-Jew, slave and free, male and female. Among us you are equal. That is, we are all in a common relationship with Jesus Christ. Galatians 3:28
  • 2 Become 1! (
    The tree of life has one kind of fruit: awesome, wonderful, amazing, supernatural, extraordinary, divine Love! This Love has no opposite; it is Light without any darkness at all! It is nondual, single awareness, God-consciousness, super-abundant, powerful, spiritual energy, and comes from a sound, light-filled Christ-Mind!

26 thoughts on “Pain, sanctification and salvation

  1. This is flawed – you argue that someone ends up a quadraplegic as an opportunity to “grow”? I’m not sure that you realise how nasty that sounds.
    Bad things happen to good people for no explanable reason – it is unfortunate, tragic but one shouldn’t advocate a nonsense explaination where no sensible explaination exists.


    • You say “Bad things happen to good people for no explanable reason” How do you know there is no reason or some purpose behind it? According to the Bible everything we experience can be something to learn form. So this means good and bad can be for our education and strengthening, and as such even be for a good purpose.


      • I’m saying no sensible explaination exists – there appears to be ZERO evidence that there is purpose behind everything. You’re asserting the bible to be proof positive of something that cannot be proven true or false.


        • Do you think if there would not be a God, like you believe there does not exist a god that there would be no pain, no suffering. Sorry in case there would be no God and the world is what it is today we still see innocent children being killed. What would you say to them and to their parents? And why does there has to be such pain in the world? Way do so many innocent people suffer according to you and what can be done against it? what are you doing against all that suffering? What are you doing against all the pain? What is your answer to those parents who loose their beloved children? How do you help all the loving parents who have to see their children suffer? What is your answer to those who stay behind by those who died?


          • Without proof or evidence, claims are simply fallacious assertions. The burden of proof remains with the party MAKING the claim. It is illogical to accept any claim without evidence, let alone extremely unlikely/supernatural claims.
            I totally agree that purpose in the universe appears untestable. This should be a red flag to all logical thinkers, or those who endorse the scientific method. An important prerequisite for any hypothesis in science is the ability to falsify the claim.
            Unfortunately in the world of religion, many claims are made which cannot be tested, therefore should be considered dubious.


  2. For those who do not believe in God but have objection about the position we do think god has taken should think about the justice or about injustice of Him by looking at their position in this world-system.

    They should know like any sensible Christian knows that pain and suffering are inevitable as long as human beings exist in this world-system. Though they may not forget that “Misery” is optional.

    Scott God did not promise days without pain, laughter without sorrow, sun without rain. But he promised us strength for the day, comfort for tears and light for the road. Those who do not know God might perhaps also find comfort in their life full of pains, which is good that they can find solutions to bear the pains. But those who do not believe in God strangely enough do want to blame God to be the cause for all the misery in the world; Strangely enough they do not want to see how human being are at the cause of most suffering in this world. Why, in case they do not believe in God, do they attack Him than so much? Why Scott do you want to give God the blame of all suffering?

    Those who believe in God and the Bible can find answers in the Holy Scriptures. You do not want to find them in it. That is your full right. We can only hope you will be able to give enough answers to your beloved and also to yourself. We also can hope you find ways to bear the many pains this life brings over us.

    In case you find us fools because we do believe in the Eternal Supreme Being, that is your full right, and we do not mind.
    We know what human being started of many millennia ago and how they wanted to take all responsibility. Now they bear all responsibility it is so funny they do want to blame the One Who had provided a world without pain and without any difficulties.

    We can see the difference in the world between believers and unbelievers, though they both have to live under the same conditions in this same world-system. We know bad and good things may come over us, like it would the same when there would have been no God. It is easy to accept perhaps, when we do something wrong that we would get punished for it or get harshly treated. That we also may endure with patience.
    But if when we do what is right and suffer for it we patiently endure it, we do know that this finds favour with God. We even believe that God hopes to find such a good attitude from those who believe in God, to prove contrary to those who do not want to believe in Him. In a certain way from the moment it went wrong (in the Garden of Eden) and man choose to go its own way, God allowed them to go their own way. But for those who preferred to stay under His Wings, He allows blessings to come over them. You may not like it, but look how you would treat your children when they do good. those who prefer to follow the right path and try to make the best of their life and the best of their environment (protecting man, plant and animal) can consider themselves like to have been called for this purpose of endurance,
    since Christ also suffered for them, leaving us an example for us to follow in his steps. (1 Peter 2:20-2)

    You may call it not fair that those who want to follow Jesus, have him as a mediator in heaven. You may find it unjust that God lets those who want to look up at Him feel His Guiding Hand. For you as unbeliever it may not be right that those who believe in God have better hopes than those who do not believe at all. first of all I wonder why they worry so much? Because when they do believe there is not such a Being like the One we do believe in, then for them life is as simple as it is now, because then there is no difference in what happens today, yesterday, yesteryear or in future. Though for those who believe I can tell you they have the hope to have something better to look forward to. They also know that it is God Who can give that they always can overcome the problems that could happen to them. It is for them That unseen God, the Eternal Spirit Who makes that we can come stronger out of the struggles than those who do not believe. But in case the unbeliever can not find a strength in his own beliefs of there not being a God of god, that is not our fault nor the fault form the Divine Creator.

    I am sorry.
    Wishing you much strength in life and endurance.


  3. Dear Scott and readers who do find God is unjust,

    Imagine you are living in a very nice family, having everything and only good things to look forward. You get a marvellous offer, earning a lot of money and ask your father if you can take on the job. He advices you not to take the job, but you ignore his advice and take on the work in an asbestos factory. At first everything seems to be working out for the good and you are admired by the others for everything you can buy. Though after some years your health is going downwards and your lounges are giving you a lot of problems. You have to go in hospital and treatment is costing you a lot, getting your family in financial problems. In the meantime you got kids and your son enjoys life and does whatever he wants. He has lack of any rules and so he does not mind driving through the red light. One day by passing the red light he crashes with one person who went through the green light. He becomes totally paralysed. Now he blames his father because he allowed there to be rules in the system and having him had a car and now having nothing any more; The father (you) is also cross with his father and blames him now to have given him the liberty to go out and live on his own, having taken on the job in the asbestos factory. Though he seems to forget his father has warned him for the dangers.

    Do you think the grandfather is guilty for the bad things his grandson did and caused to others? do you consider the grandfather responsible for the actions of his children and his grandchildren?

    What are you doing and thinking about God the Father?


    • Wow – a lot to respond to in those posts – here we go…

      Ok, firstly I’ll clear up some apparent misunderstandings:
      – I don’t believe that if a God exists there would be no pain or suffering
      – I DON’T blame god for the suffering in the world
      – I and other atheists don’t blame god, as we don’t believe a god exists. Why blame something that one doesn’t believe exists? My prior comments re Noah’s flood should not be interpreted as a displeasure with god, but an objection to the poor morality inherent in thinking that drowning small children is justifiable – it is not & I question people who can ‘rationalise’ such heinous acts.
      – I do not think of you as fools. I merely think you chose, whether conscious or unconsciously, not to be critical of the extraordinary claims made by your own religion (although your scepticism seems intact when appraising the merits of other religions)

      I think your example of a father & asbestos worker is extremely flawed. Again, you are assuming that we believe in the father, that he gives clear advice, etc. A far better analogy (for Garden of Eden story) would be a father puts a bowl of poison on the coffee table that looks like candy/sweets. He then tells his naïve 3 & 4 year old children not to eat from the bowl, all the time KNOWING with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that he’ll poison his children… This is repulsive.

      What would I say to parents of children suffering? That science and medicine has moved forward incredibly and everything possible is being done. When they die, I can only tell the truth in a compassionate way – that their child passing means it’s no longer suffering & in pain, and that they’ll always have the wonderful memories of them when they were with us. Not as pretty as a story about resurrection or heaven, but at least this version is fact based.

      What do I do to alleviate suffering? I donate to Fred Hollows Foundation to restore eyesight, and also to Medcines San Frontier to help those in need. I donate blood. I volunteer. I work on School Council. I’m a member of Amnesty. I treat people kindly. I try and make people happy. I love my wife & kids.

      I’d advocate that one of the main differences between believers & unbelievers is that believers seem to think that they’re wretched creatures, sinners, and deserve everything bad that happens to them. I teach my children that they are wonderful, but sometimes bad things happen & we need to deal with it.

      My main objections to people following Jesus are:
      • There is no reasonable (let alone extraordinary) evidence for the extraordinary claims of miracles, floods, Exodus, let alone resurrections and eternal life
      • It’s selfishly motivated – people adopt the Jesus story and act according to the precepts of their chosen religion because they want the reward at the end for themselves – eternal life. A non-believer acting nicely does so because it’s simply the right thing to do. Which is more moral – a kind act for the sake of being kind, or for reward?
      • The idea of vicarious redemption is something I’ll never subscribe to. That a man was tortured and crucified is something that I object to in the strongest possible sense. I had no choice in this human sacrifice to a God, which incidentally could simply have forgiven people of their sins, rather than ‘require’ a blood sacrifice. If I ‘sin’ I need to be fully accountable for my wrongdoing & I need to make amends with the person I wronged – I should not simply pray for forgiveness and have someone else punished for something bad that I’ve done. This is immoral.

      I imagine the above might be difficult for you to consider, but hope you might be able to think on these musings. I’ve tried in the above to criticise religion more than people – this is my intention, as many people are simply not exposed to alternate views.

      I must say I do admire that you will at least entertain a robust discussion – something that Christadelphians tend to actively avoid. I sincerely appreciate you considering my posts.

      Kind regards



  4. May we remind you that the Bible does not bring a pretty a story about people going up from their body when they die to land up in heaven. So we do not believe in rapture or such thing or heaving us going to heaven after death. The Bible is clear, when we die it is finished and we shall not be able to think, do anything or go anywhere, we shall end up decaying and becoming dust. As it is for non-believers in God as for believers, like you say it is “at least this version is fact based.” therefore it is so important that we come to live well in this life, because there is no re-incarnation, according to the Bible.

    As you point out there is a big danger that “believers seem to think that they’re wretched creatures, sinners, and deserve everything bad that happens to them.” It is this negative attitude which undermines them and takes away many positive changes for them. It is also not trusting the Most High and is once more a proof that they put their own personality in the front and concentrate everything round their own “I”.

    Next you bring up “Jesus”. I do hope you do not think we consider Jesus is to be God, because than you are making a biblical fault again. According to the Bible Jesus is the son of God and not God Himself. Jesus or better Jeshua from the tribe of king David was a master teacher and Jewish rabbi, who showed a lot of insight in the Word of God. He also did marvellous things we can not understand. Such um-incomprehensible acts we call miracles.

    You say “There is no reasonable (let alone extraordinary) evidence for the extraordinary claims of miracles, floods, Exodus, let alone resurrections and eternal life” but then you do not look into the many researches on that matter. Even people who tried to proof the flood, the plagues etc. did not happen had come to review their idea and became convinced by the scientist and historical proofs of those things having happened.

    In case people would only do good because they want to receive eternal life this would be the wrong motivation and God would know their heart and take notice of it. I totally agree that it is more moral – a kind act for the sake of being kind then the wrong and uncountable for reward.

    We have to disappoint you, in history many more man than Jesus were tortured until death. So “That a man was tortured and crucified is something that I object to in the strongest possible sense” may also a question of you objecting torture until death, like we are against such cruel way of bringing people to death. But it happened in the past and still happens today. Different ways may be used for that. Look for example to what IS does at the moment.

    Like you say ” I had no choice in this human sacrifice to a God, which incidentally could simply have forgiven people of their sins, rather than ‘require’ a blood sacrifice. ” we also did not have a choice in this human sacrifice. We even would say we also had no choice in any sacrifice made in this world except the sacrifices we made ourselves or sometimes beloved of us made for us.

    When we ‘sin’ we need to be fully accountable for our wrongdoing and we can not blame others for it nor can we demand others taking the blame for it on them, nor can we demand others to sit out the penalty for us. Today, like centuries ago, nothing changed that we should make amends with the person we wronged. This is still indicated in the Bible as well. It is not because Jesus died for our sins that we just can do whatever we would like to do, can do wrong without having remorse for it. If we show no remorse for it we shall not be forgiven, contrary to what many Christians may believe. Faith without works is dead. And one of the works of faith is recognising what is good and what is wrong and trying to keep to the good and when having done something bad to make it right again.

    You say “I should not simply pray for forgiveness” but that is also what a Christian should not do and certainly not what you say next “and have someone else punished for something bad that I’ve done.” Where do you get it from that a Christian would love such a thing? that badness comes over people because others have something done wrong is not like but is just a matter of action and reaction whereby the God has nothing to do with. You may call it “immoral” but what can we do against it or what can the God do against it without becoming a dictator Who destroys all those Who do not what He wants them to do? When people take away all the trees from a hill and when it rains hard there is a mudslide, than those who took away the trees are responsible but yes those who live underneath the gone trees are the victims and it can well be they had nothing to do or could not do anything against the scrupulous tree-killers.

    It is good you try to help others and fund several organisations. Many Christians would do that as well. I also support even several of your mentioned organisations also, but be sure I do not do that for reserving me a place in heaven. Me also being active on humanitarian front is also not to gain souls, nor to get me a better place in heaven. (I even do not believe I ever would end up in heaven. I shall already be happy in case I might be able to enter the Kingdom of God here on earth.)

    I like it and find it good you try to bring those many people who “are simply not exposed to alternate views” to give them alternate ideas of thinking; We should continuously have our minds questioning all things. This is something which the Bible says we should do daily. It is very useful that we question everything we do want to believe or what others believe. We do need to get the reasons of way of thinking and to find out what can be the truth or a truth behind certain ideas. the world is also not black and white and we should give people enough alternatives and show them there are different ways to handle certain subjects and also different ways of looking at certain things, by which not one has to be thé right way but that sometimes there are different ways.

    It is a pity not many more people in this world would try out a robust discussion and love to see respect for each other different ways of point-view. I also appreciate it very much you are taking the time to indulge in this conversation and giving other readers the opportunity to use their brains as well. This way you to can help others to make them investigate, something we all should do.


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    Should unborn children be executed without a judge and twelve jurors sentencing them to death? Why do adults get their day in court, but the unborn are killed without a fair trial? Why are the unborn deemed worthy of death?

    The advocates of abortion contend that unborn children are not human, but are simply nonhuman fetal tissue.

    God makes clear the life begins at conception.

    Job 3:3 “May the day perish on which I was born. And the night in which it was said, ‘A male child is conceived.'(NKJV)

    Children are children at conception.

    Genesis 25:21-22 Now Isaac pleaded with the Lord for his wife , because she was barren; and the Lord granted his plea, and Rebekah his wife conceived. 22 But the children struggled together within her; and she said, “If all is well, why am I this way?” So she went to inquire of the Lord.(NKJV)

    Rebekah did not conceive nonhuman fetuses. Children struggled in her womb.

    Luke 1:36 “Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this now the sixth month for her who was called barren.(NKJV)

    Elizabeth conceived a son. She did not conceive a nonhuman fetus.

    Did the Virgin Mary conceive Jesus as the Son of God, or was Jesus a nonhuman blog, called a fetus? (Luke 1:30-31)

    Since Roe v Wade 57 million unborn babies have been executed without appearing before a judge and a jury of their peers. What crime did those 57 million babies commit that they should be sentenced to death without a trial.


    • You seem to be ignoring a number of issues which discredit the veracity of your argument:
      – please note that approximately 50% of pregnancies end in natural miscarriage. This number is FAR greater than the number of abortions carried out. Presumably you advocate that God’s will be done, so this presumably means it’s your Gods will that many pregnancies are aborted via natural miscarriage. If God REALLY intervenes in our lives this tragedy remains unexplained
      – I cannot think of any credible advocate for choice that states unborn fetuses are not human. Many people do advocate that they are not children, but this is a vastly different argument. It is, by definition, a human fetus. Just like an egg laid by a chicken is a chicken egg.
      – Are you SERIOUSLY advocating that, upon a sperm entering an egg, this small cluster of cells is a child? This is a very difficult position to justify. Everyone agrees that following birth we have a child. Near to everyone should agree that just before birth we have an unborn child. This means that somewhere between conception & birth the fetus becomes a child (unborn), but it seems ludicrous to propose that a tiny cluster of 100 or so cells is a child. For perspective, the brain of a housefly has about 100,000 cells!
      I invite you to reply with your best counterpoints
      Kind regards


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